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Forum » Informations Section » Rules Complains » the anti-camp system (is highly annoying)
the anti-camp system
RMFDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 10:33 AM | Message # 1
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At first the no-camp thing seemed fine, but after a while I noticed (like the rest of our team) every time you type just a couple of words you loose hp already and it's better to kill yourself - which in most cases gives the enemy an advantage. Sometimes when you are 1 on 1 with an enemy for a sec and you're moving slowly around the corner towards the other you also get killed by this system. Why is the anti-camp rule of 12s there if the server 'attacks' you in like 10secs anyway?? Also the rule was if you were standing in the same spot, not in x distance from some place (which this system is checking on). Both of my other teammembers complained about it as well, so I guess it's not just me.
 
DarkalDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 10:40 AM | Message # 2
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We didn't discussed about anti-camp system except in archives of league organization where we decided to NOT set any automatical system, and referee would judge about camping.

So about this tool, I dunno where was it decided to be enabled. We are sorry for this problem, it will be soon disabled or explained how does it works, and may be set, at least, to 20sec of delay in case of, only, abusive camping.

 
RMFDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 10:52 AM | Message # 3
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Hmm so basicly we were playing the last matches on some bad version of the servers?
 
supergrismDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 6:51 PM | Message # 4
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Quote (RMF)
Hmm so basicly we were playing the last matches on some bad version of the servers?

No. The anti camp system was implemented because of the last matchs complaints.

The settings are currently 9 seconds to trigger the system, and in a range which is about a little more than the half of the oasago2 rail spot, and hurts you 40 HP per 2 or 3 seconds.

There is no prevention of this system if you chat. There was one in an earlier release of E+, but people abused of binds to avoid the anticamp, so now it triggers even if you talk.

Anyway, I hardly can see how you would get the time to talk in a real match. The system settings were thought in relation to real matchs, not friendly or testing matchs and such were, anyway, there's no real deal so there's no problem if you get killed.

Please test it in real conditions. For the moment, Ive received only good feedbacks, but if you have some ideas to tweak these settings, feel free. But please test it in real conditions.

 
RMFDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 11:11 PM | Message # 5
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Quote
I hardly can see how you would get the time to talk in a real match.
In teamchat when a new member does something wrong? smile

Quote
there's no real deal so there's no problem if you get killed.
hmm wait I'm not following you. Why wouldn't getting killed be a real deal? Why do we train for months or years to most effectively kill the opponent and not get killed yourself of it wouldn't be?

Quote
Please test it in real conditions.
Is an oacl match vs pi real enough for you?

Quote
if you have some ideas to tweak these settings, feel free
I don't have rcon (afaik), but my suggestion is to at least put the timelimit to 12 which is the official oacl rule limit. Imo also the radius should be a little smaller, like 75% of what it is now. And as it appears to be an option, maybe freeze or slow the timer when chatting.

Quote
The anti camp system was implemented because of the last matchs complaints.
Idk the 'last match' really, but isn't it just in the rules to warn players and or clans for camping (rather than limiting all matches played on the servers)?
 
supergrismDate: Thursday, 2010-08-05, 11:46 PM | Message # 6
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Quote (RMF)
hmm wait I'm not following you. Why wouldn't getting killed be a real deal? Why do we train for months or years to most effectively kill the opponent and not get killed yourself of it wouldn't be?

I meant in friendly or test matchs.

Quote (RMF)
Is an oacl match vs pi real enough for you?

Yes then please send me the demos, I will review them asap.

Quote (RMF)
I don't have rcon (afaik), but my suggestion is to at least put the timelimit to 12 which is the official oacl rule limit. Imo also the radius should be a little smaller, like 75% of what it is now.

Of course, I mean I tweak them, but I need some suggestions.

I can tweak the time (by range of 2-3 seconds), the area of effect and the damages.

Anyway, I don't think the time of 12 seconds is good. For now the time currently set has been proved to be ok (while the 12 seconds of the rules are only empirical, there's no test or observation to further prove that it's a good value).

About the area, I'm thinking of indeed shrinking it a little, but I need testers. If you want to organize a testing session...

Quote (RMF)
And as it appears to be an option, maybe freeze or slow the timer when chatting.

No option for chat, it was how the mod behaved as a whole in older versions (no anticamp when chatting, now it always triggers even if chatting).

Quote (RMF)
Idk the 'last match' really, but isn't it just in the rules to warn players and or clans for camping (rather than limiting all matches played on the servers)?

It does not limit : it warns by hurting you to urge you to move. It doesn't kill instantly although it could. That's the goal.

 
TinyDate: Friday, 2010-08-06, 10:09 AM | Message # 7
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Quote (supergrism)
About the area, I'm thinking of indeed shrinking it a little, but I need testers. If you want to organize a testing session...

I can be a tester, actually, i just give my opinion about the area zone, if a defencer ( in team play that's usual ) stay at the same zone while moving a lot though ( right and left, up and down ), he gets killed, and have to move a lot not to get killed.
One problem i saw is on ps37ctf, when you're sniping on the bridge, you can stay alive because of the anti-camp, if you want to move, you got 2 choices ( or 3 actually ):
- You jumped over the bridge, but that's not really what you want to do...
- You go into the ennemy base, but that's suicide...
- You get back into your base, but then the ennemy can get into yours too...
So, on this map, sorry for the word, but it sucks a bit sad
On the over maps, i think if the timer was a little bit longer, and same for "camp zone", it would be better smile

 
supergrismDate: Friday, 2010-08-06, 2:51 PM | Message # 8
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Quote (Tiny)
I can be a tester, actually

I need more than one tester, but 8 persons to test a full game.

Quote (Tiny)
if a defencer ( in team play that's usual ) stay at the same zone while moving a lot though ( right and left, up and down ), he gets killed, and have to move a lot not to get killed.

What you describe is camping. It's not because the player is moving from 10 pixels that he doesn't do camping. If you stay on the same spot for a long time, that's what you do, no matter if you are moving a little or not.

Quote (Tiny)
One problem i saw is on ps37ctf, when you're sniping on the bridge, you can stay alive because of the anti-camp, if you want to move, you got 2 choices ( or 3 actually ):

Normal : if you stay on the bridge for more than 9 seconds, you are camping. Anyway you can stay on the bridge, you just have to move along. If you stand on the edge and rail any player you see, that's normal that the anti camp triggers.

Quote (Tiny)
On the over maps, i think if the timer was a little bit longer, and same for "camp zone", it would be better

As I said, the timer was raised for 2 more seconds. Please test again if your tests were done more than 2 days ago.

Quote (Darkal)
We are sorry for this problem, it will be soon disabled or explained how does it works, and may be set, at least, to 20sec of delay in case of, only, abusive camping.

Having a too high timer is as useless as having none.

 
DarkalDate: Friday, 2010-08-06, 3:01 PM | Message # 9
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Quote (supergrism)
Quote
We are sorry for this problem, it will be soon disabled or explained how does it works, and may be set, at least, to 20sec of delay in case of, only, abusive camping.

Having a too high timer is as useless as having none.

Yes I though about it twice, indeed 20sec is totally useless. But in small maps it's sure that 10sec is too short.

Imagine you stay at a place for 4sec, then an ennemy coming, sometime I have more that 8sec railgun duel xD

 
supergrismDate: Friday, 2010-08-06, 5:48 PM | Message # 10
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Quote (Darkal)
Imagine you stay at a place for 4sec, then an ennemy coming, sometime I have more that 8sec railgun duel xD

I know, there can be a problem in close range gunfights, but I think the time is ok, maybe the area is to be shortened. But as I tested again myself, I couldn't trigger the anticamp in any gunfights, because you nevertheless move during the gunfight, usually enough to not trigger the anticamp (or you get killed before anyway).

But we need more testers connected at the same time on a server to test more.

 
TinyDate: Friday, 2010-08-06, 11:18 PM | Message # 11
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Quote (supergrism)
What you describe is camping. It's not because the player is moving from 10 pixels that he doesn't do camping. If you stay on the same spot for a long time, that's what you do, no matter if you are moving a little or not.

Here is the classic discussion about camping, i really think, team acts and stupid camping are different.
You can prohibited stupid camping, though, you shouldn't do that in some leagues, because you just stop a lot of teamplay possibilities sad

 
supergrismDate: Saturday, 2010-08-07, 0:59 AM | Message # 12
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Quote (Tiny)
Here is the classic discussion about camping, i really think, team acts and stupid camping are different.
You can prohibited stupid camping, though, you shouldn't do that in some leagues, because you just stop a lot of teamplay possibilities

That's why this anti-camp is really tolerant : seriously, Ive yet to see a case where someone get really punished without being abusively camping. Even players that were once totally against the anti-camp are currently convinced by the system.

I would agree if it prevented you to defend. Here it's not : when you stay 10 seconds on the same spot, no matter what you were planning : it's an obvious case of camping. Count 10 seconds : you will see how long this is.

 
DarkalDate: Tuesday, 2010-08-10, 2:12 PM | Message # 13
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Quote (Tiny)
Here is the classic discussion about camping, i really think, team acts and stupid camping are different.
You can prohibited stupid camping, though, you shouldn't do that in some leagues, because you just stop a lot of teamplay possibilities

I will say what I say publicaly to every campers :
YES : Camping is a strategy in FPS video games. And the only one difference between "Stupid camping" and "Smart camping" is the strategy to use depending of the game you play.
And in fast FPS, like Quake and OA, the Camping is a bad strategy anyway.

I often read campers saying me "Idiot, base camp is strategy" so everybody has to know that, in OpenArena, when experimented players talk about CAMPING, we DO NOT talk about Base Camping which is not "staying on a position, on a spot" ; but run over the base, which is totally different. Base Camping not means Camping in the Base !!!!!!!

Quote (supergrism)
I would agree if it prevented you to defend. Here it's not : when you stay 10 seconds on the same spot, no matter what you were planning : it's an obvious case of camping. Count 10 seconds : you will see how long this is.

+1 do the test and you will see that in 10sec you have the time to be fragged 6 times biggrin
 
supergrismDate: Wednesday, 2010-08-11, 0:28 AM | Message # 14
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Quote (Darkal)
I will say what I say publicaly to every campers :
YES : Camping is a strategy in FPS video games. And the only one difference between "Stupid camping" and "Smart camping" is the strategy to use depending of the game you play.
And in fast FPS, like Quake and OA, the Camping is a bad strategy anyway.

I agree, but here I agreed to implement the anti-camping, mainly to avoid complaints, and to avoid uninteresting matchs, where each team just stay camped at their positions. Such excessive camping is not suitable for an event like this league.

 
DarkalDate: Wednesday, 2010-08-11, 9:49 AM | Message # 15
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Yes I forgot in my post to mention that, in addition to being a bad strategy, it's an annoying strategy for other players, then it removes the other's fun and this is the important point.
 
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